The future of Black Lake bass fishing

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GuidedBassTrips
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The future of Black Lake bass fishing

Post by GuidedBassTrips » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:28 pm

I am glad to see many have a concern about the quality of bass fishing in Black Lake now. Versus doing nothing about it and just going to a different lake someday if it declines.

Bass fishing is my life and I am constantly learning more that I did not know. Like how many times a largemouth can be caught and released, despite being left with a hook more than once. You should see this in Florida. Believe me catch and release works. Smallmouth I am not so sure can take it as well.

I also have become part biologist. Everyone blames fishing pressure but you may notice biologists don't seem to address that much. They worry more about changes in ecology and invasive species. Why? Because fishing pressure is not constant across an entire fishery. Or is it year round. A change in ecology is a constant that effects an entire fishery all at once. Those carp rolling around out there? That worries me more than fishing pressure. Black Lake is an extremely fertile lake. Biologists call it a eutrophic lake. Lakes age naturally through time and Black Lake is categorized in this last stage. I think they would even categorize it as late-stage eutrophic. The eventual death of a lake is they become overly fertile with intense algae blooms, fill in with mud, and are dominated by trash fish like gar, carp, and bowfin which can live in poorly oxygenated water. There are dead lakes all over the country from this. And unfortunately man speeds up the aging process.

The water quality in Black Lake is influenced by one...the Indian River, two....agriculture surrounding the lake, and three.....poor septic systems in old cottages. All of these effect the water quality. I recently replaced my septic tank at my cottage with a tank that has to be pumped out....no leach field. How many cottages around the lake you think have a leach field? That works properly? This also adds to the weed growth.

I thought I'd bring this topic up because many may not be aware of the aging process of this lake.....Instead of pointing fingers at something that really cannot be changed....we need people to come and fish Black Lake. The regulations do say they can keep five 15" bass and some will still do it. I also believe more and more will continue to practice catch and release over time.

What can be done now? Definetely the septic tanks. Which I hope someday will be changed around the lake. Secondly, concentrate on saving the jewel of the lake....which are the bass. One day last week we got checked by the DEC and I asked them if they were doing any creel studies on the lake. And they said just on walleye. I asked about the bass and he said "No. There are alot of them". I apologize to any walleye guys but Black Lake is in the "bass stage" now. The "walleye stage" was several years ago. This lake has aged beyond that. Stocking Walleye in the lake is like trying to bring industry back to NY. You move on. How about taking that money and putting it toward the bass fishery?....Now. Not when it's too late and nobody comes here anymore.

Imagine Black Lake having 30-50 bass fishing guides, year round, half of them full time, half of them part time. That's Lake Toho in FL. At 18,000 acres. Black Lake is similar in size at 11,000 acres. Yet Lake Toho keeps producing. Some of the older guides had there best year ever. I had some incredible days myself and wondered where are these fish coming from? This lake gets pounded. You should see the tournaments they have. Why? Lake management. The biologists there say the fishing pressure doesn't hurt the lake. But the changing ecology?......They are very fearful of it. Just like Black Lake...there are alot of gar, bowfin, and carp.

Unfortunately bass have always taken a back seat with the NYDEC and hopefully that will change someday. They have been spoiled with bass being a species that has always taken care of itself. Unfortunately that day may be coming when the Black Lake bass fishery will have to be properly managed. The current budget constraints probably won't start that now, but I say they could at least concentrate on the correct species for now.
Give a starving man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

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Bass Fishing and the Black Lake Ecosystem

Post by RochNY » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:42 am

Very well said Randy. You are right on the mark.

The Root Cause (no pun intended) of excessive weed growth is fertilizer in the form of poop, plain and simple. Weeds didn't come over night and they will not be gone overnight. Also, folks need to remember the weed growth is cyclic--some years will be worse than others, even if the lake chemistry is progressing in the right direction through reduction in sewage / septic system 'fertilizer' entering the lake! But we have to start somewhere and you took the right step in addressing your septic system issue. Holding tanks are tricky because they must be diligently monitored so they don't overflow. That's done by scheduled pumping/emptying. I somehow think you'll be more careful than many others about this.

While we cannot stop advanced cultural eutrophication (the speeding up of the natural lake aging process by mans' deleterious activities) we can perhaps slow it if we vigorously address the issue of on-site sewage systems--cesspools, septic systems and holding tanks. Folks need to remember that these systems ALL require vigilance and maintenance. They do wear out and sometimes 'break' suddenly...all for assignable cause. The end result is Black Lake suffers.

You are correct that biologists worry far more about systemic ecological change than they do seasonal or temporal (time-based) impacts. The relentless onslaught of seeping poop-water, the out-competing by invasive species of our native species is what is really changing Black Lake for the long term.

The Black Lake Association has been hammering away at these points for many years now and we will continue to do so. We do NOT support use of chemicals in Black Lake to control weeds, nor do we support mechanical harvesting machinery (which has been used on Black Lake in the past). We are currently trialing benthic mats at three sites on Black Lake (on a very small scale). We are currently formulating a specific long term plan that we hope to pursue with consistency for the next fifteen years. We have the hope and belief that such a plan, if well-formulated, will lead to a reduction in areas of the lake with prolific weed growth.

Vigilance to prevent new invasive species from entering Black Lake with sportsmen at the lead is a key! Stop aquatic 'hitchhikers'. In addition, we will not support wholesale measures to 'clear weeds'. Native plant species are highly desirable and care must be taken to not harm these plant populations.

Thanks again for speaking up--I know your fellow sportsmen share many of your views and all of them value the quality fishery that Black Lake has been and continues to be.

Sincerely,
Rich Henderson, President, Black Lake Association
Preserve, Protect, Enhance Black Lake Every Day

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Post by jerry d » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:08 pm

Two VERY GOOD post......thank-you guys!

That shed alot of light on the issue @ hand!!!!!

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Post by Glenp » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:18 pm

As I have read the posts recently about the state of the fishery at BL, I have come to a conclusion - It is much easier to complain and point fingers than it is to give constructive solutions. The first two posts on this thread are complimentary.

Mr._Whack_Master
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Post by Mr._Whack_Master » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:35 am

This is a great post with some wonderful replies so far and I'm in total agreement.

Being from Ohio, most homes here are tied to a local waste water treatment plant, even in rural areas. I am curious, is it possible to run an actual underground sanitary sewer line for the local homes near Black Lake to eliminate leech field run off?
Big talk doesn't make a big man.

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Post by Bassbuster » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:19 am

Sewers around BL would be totally unfeasible. Besides NY already has the highest taxes in the country, a sewer system would increase them even more for cottage owners around the lake. People just need to take personal responsibility for maintaining and upgrading their septic systems and also need to stop piping "gray" water rich in phosphates directly into the water.

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Post by RochNY » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:19 am

Bassbuster is right. Not only is discharge of gray water into water bodies illegal, it is as harmful to the ecosystem or perhaps even more harmful than poop. It is rich in phosphate, the primary fertilizer for weed growth. Every homeowner who does this is contributing to the rapid decline and certain death of Black Lake, plain and simple. Aside from that, they are lawbreakers. Personal responsibility is the key here. This lake does not belong to us, it belongs to all generations. While we enjoy it, we have an ethical, moral, political and financial responsibility to preserve and protect the lake. Every sportsman/woman knows that a significant portion of their licenses fund conservation efforts. With our camps, cottages, cabins should we be doing anything less than working to conserve this great resource?

One poster asked if we could sewer around Black Lake. With 69 miles of shoreline and only about 1,000 deeded lakefront properties, it would be cost-prohibitive to attempt this. The terrain and soils (heavy rock prevalent at the ground-surface) would drive costs of such a system through the roof. Further complicating the difficulty of such a proposal is the fact that there are six local governmental units plus the county and state encompassing Black Lake's area. It would require a Regional Sewer Authority be formed and that costs money. The tax base for Black Lake and immediate surround is not big enough to fund that authority, let alone build such a massive system. The ability to repay on huge funding bonds simply isn't in St. Lawrence County right now...perhaps some day, but not at present. Meanwhile, every property owner who pollutes the lake with sewage and graywater (which is also technically sewage) is whittling away the very features of the lake that could attract such growth. With this comment, I'm neither suggesting that rapid expansive growth is good or bad, just saying that growth will cease if the lake becomes less desirable. Most of us have property there because of the gem it was/is at the time we discovered Black Lake. Let's all work to keep that gem sparkling and well-polished.

Your septic system is your poop. It's YOUR responsibility to ensure that you are not pooping in OUR lake. If we each do our part, this lake will be there for our children and their children to enjoy for many, many years to come.

Sincerely,
Rich Henderson, President
Black Lake Association
Preserve, Protect, Enhance Black Lake Every Day

ken18621
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Post by ken18621 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:16 pm

You have a very good read here Capt. Randy. You touched on a terriffic point of agricultural runoff being a factor of weed growth .

A buddy of mine has a small farm pond in an agricultural area. The stream that feeds his pond runs through several farms that have a variety of animals including cows and ducks. He has a heck of a time with weeds, he resorted to putting bails of rye straw along the shoreline and it cleared up the problem pretty well. 15 years ago there wasnt any weeds in his pond........ There wasnt any livestock upstream back then either. Not to mention the weed growth attributed from fertilizer runoff.

As far as grey water runoff being a big problem with weed growth, I believe those days are behind us. I think that for the past few years they have been cracking down on the detergent companies regarding phosphates. I just checked all the containers in my house and they all were labeled as "phosphate free". This is good news. :D

Has anyone ever entertained the idea of stocking triploid grass carp?
The Pa Fish Commission has been getting involved with them as a solution for weed growth. http://www.fishandboat.com/images/pages ... tgc002.pdf
The cost might be a hard pill to swallow.......might be worth looking in to .

I took this from wikipedia .......

"The grass carp grows very rapidly, and young fish stocked in the spring at 20 centimetres (7.9 in) will reach over 45 centimetres (18 in) by fall, and adults often attain nearly 1.2 metres (3.9 ft) in length and over 18 kilograms (40 lb) in weight. According to one study, they live an average of 5-9 years with the oldest gaining 11 years. [7] They eat up to 3 times their own body weight daily. They thrive in small lakes and backwaters that provide an abundant supply of fresh water vegetation."

Just food for thought

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Post by RochNY » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:10 am

ken18621,
You have suggested a few things here that give a bit of an incorrect assessment of Black Lake.

Firstly, while there is some agriculture around and upstream of Black Lake, it is third in the list of runoff contributors. If you look at upstream/upriver satellite photography, the most significant acreage of land in the Black Lake watershed is undeveloped/unoccupied. For utilzed land/occupied land, the second largest amount is individual housing, each with its own sewage disposal system onsite.

Gray water is approximately 60-70% of household waste water and can contain as much phosphates per gallon as toilet water. Even if the phosphate concentration is lower, the large volume makes it a major contributor to phosphate levels. It also contributes to turbidity, BOD and microbial loading, much of which is pathogenic. Dishwasher detergents may contain phosphates and even today not all laundry products are free of phosphates.

Gray water is considered sewage in NYS and as such must receive treatment BEFORE discharging into surface waters of the state.

Black Lake's 69 miles of shoreline directly on the lake has far more houses/campgrounds/camps than it has farms. The farmers on Black Lake do a good job of containing their animal wastes--they need the nutrients for the relatively poor soils they use to grow hay to feed the animals. At the northeast end of Black Lake where the lake zone farms are, there are significant, large footage vegetation buffer zones between the feed/graze areas and the water. Any water runoff is absorbed and utilized for the most part by land vegetation.

On site septic systems do not conform to the agricultural standard in many cases. Hidden from view, they are often on very small lakefront lots, mere feet from the water's edge. With gray water and black water flowing into these older, small systems, there is certainty that water is moving through the thin soils and directly into the lake.

Grass carp have been considered for Black Lake. DEC will not allow them because Black Lake is a flowing lake that cannot have barriers installed to prevent the movement of the carp out of the waterbody--a requirement in NYS. In addition, significant studies are now showing that grass carp eat as much or more native vegetation as they do the invasives for which they were intended. Add to that the high cost and you have a formula that won't work on our lake.

One can only conclude then that the most significant factor, as a mitigation for excessive weed growth on Black Lake is the effort to contain and treat human sewage. It is more preventive in nature than palliative. Even if grass carp could be used and even if they ate ONLY Eurasian Watermilfoil, the root cause of the decline in Black Lake's water quality remains. It is this root cause that we must address.

Sincerely,
Rich Henderson
Black Lake Association
Preserve, Protect, Enhance Black Lake Every Day

ken18621
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Post by ken18621 » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:42 pm

Thanks for the informative reply Rich. I surly wasnt picking apart your post, I just thought it was good news that there are now household detergents that are phosphate free.

When I was at the lake last month my first thought while driving by all the cottages along the lake and seeing a quite rocky terrain was "how well can these drain fields be?"

There is a small lake near me that has the same issues with black water seeping into the lake and causing alge growth. the local authorities stepped in right away and made people correct their septic systems.

I see your points about the grass carp. As far as the grass carp issue with the dec goes, I am pretty sure that Pa has the same rules about flowing water and they must inspect the body of water before any are stocked to make sure that they cant migrate to other waterways.

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Post by RochNY » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:08 pm

Hi again Ken,
I didn't think you were picking apart my post...I felt it was important to reiterate some information that we (the Black Lake Association) have been working to convey to our membership as well as to the broader Black Lake watershed. You are correct in relating that many (and soon to be most all) cleaning agents/detergents/soaps are phosphate free. We published a list in our newsletter, Black Lake Currents, a while back and I intend to put an updated list in next Spring's issue before folks head back up to their seasonal camps. Nevertheless some do still contain phosphate and we intend to discourage all gray/black water discharge into our lake.

We 'jump on' any new developments in weed control, and investigate them thoroughly. Of course everyone (me included) wants a 'magic bullet', but unfortunately, there's nothing at all new on the horizon (other than the new biopesticide to fight Zebra Mussels).

I didn't want this site's readership to think that their Association hasn't examined Grass Carp as a biological control possibility. We are still holding out hope that a biological control(s) will be the eventual and best balanced solution for reducing the invasive weed growth in Black Lake.

I know everyone on here appreciates your ideas/input and of course we all love visitors to our lake (the people kind, not the invasives who take over). Thanks for the dialogue and your thoughts.

Sincerely,
Rich Henderson, President
Black Lake Association
Preserve, Protect, Enhance Black Lake Every Day

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Post by jerry d » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:04 pm

Hi Rich

How can a guy like myself that comes to Black Lake once a year help the cause ?

Is there any kind of fund or donation that people can contribute to ?

If so please post it I would like to help.

Thanks
Jerry

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Post by RochNY » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:27 pm

Hi Jerry D
Thank you for your entry and your interest. Are you a member of the Black Lake Association? If you're not, right now we're having a membership drive and contest through Labor Day. You don't get a point for joining yourself, but for others that you convince to join and list your name on their membership registration form you get one entry in our contest. First prize is a kayak and there are a number of other prizes listed in the Announcements at the top of the General Forum. It only costs $20.00 per year per person and our Association conducts research and studies into the health of our lake. We are in constant communication with the New York State Federation of Lake Associations, an umbrella group for many lake associations and other lake organizations throughout New York State. We contributed about 1/3 the cost of the Black Lake Comprehensive Management Plan which is needed in order for us to apply for grants for invasive species eradication if monies ever become available. Without that study, grant applications are not possible with the state and/or federal government. Of course our Association educates our members with our twice yearly newsletter that contains a variety of updates and technical information made readable by those with interests in Black Lake. You can read one issue of our newsletter in the Announcement titled Fall Edition of Black Lake Currents. $20.00 per year isn't a lot, but it keeps our Association going--at the forefront, informed and in tune with efforts to preserve, protect and enhance Black Lake. If you're already a member, we thank you and encourage you to sign up others. As I said above, each person who lists your name on their membership form gives you an entry into the contest. Of course at any time you can make a contribution to the Black Lake Association. We are all volunteers, not paid, so your money will be put to work funding lake-based, lake-centered efforts. We do not do social events and we are a IRS Section 501(c)3 organization.

Sincerely,
Rich Henderson, President
Black Lake Association, Inc.
Preserve, Protect, Enhance Black Lake Every Day

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septic systems

Post by earl » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:05 pm

thre is a relitivly new septic sy. that can be used on very small lots. I don't know the name but they are partly above ground and require a very small leach field.They are aproved. A couple of the have been in use in Rossie for a few years.

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Post by jerry d » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:09 am

Thanks Rich check will be sent out tomorrow AM

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